Exploring the Leadership Mastery of Pittsburgh Steelers Coach Mike Tomlin

Leadership Lessons From Mike Tomlin

Speaker 1 0:02

Quick editor's note this podcast was recorded before the Steelers week four matchup against the Houston Texans , a game in which they got absolutely blasted , 30 to 6 , with another terrible offensive performance , with mind boggling play calling and a defensive effort that looked uninspiring . At best . They lost to a team that had four offensive linemen down that needed replaced and a rookie quarterback that completely lit them up . And had we recorded after , I might have absolutely gone in on Mike Tomlin . I might have talked about the standard being the standard of mediocrity , of no playoff wins since 2016, . How press conferences after the game said , heck , yeah , we're going to make changes . That was a terrible product . And then , two days later , those changes were the attire of practice uniforms . I might have gone further in on the lack of coaching tree and how inability to select and lead leaders might be causing organizational failure . I might have just broken all of my ground roles and talked about Jackson's instead of actions . But luckily we recorded before the game and I didn't have any of those deep emotional passions that come with a lifelong of fandom . So please enjoy the podcast and some lessons through the career of Mike Tomlin .

Speaker 1 1:49

Thanks for tuning in to leadership chalk talk . It is about time for friends and longtime listeners of the show . I have made my allegiance clear . I'm a huge Pittsburgh Steelers fan and one of the most quotable , interesting leaders in all of sports is the Steelers long time coach , mike Tomlin . So it is time to break it down . To do that , I have my longtime friend , a key member in the start of leadership chalk talk without him the show would not exist and co host of that football show . I have Nick Angelo joining me today . Nick welcome , man hey .

Speaker 2 2:28

Nate , thanks for having me . This is a dream come true . Finally , the whole reason why I helped you get a podcast just so you'd asked me to be a guest . So finally I'm here .

Speaker 1 2:39

Thanks for coming on . So to give just a really quick background , nick and I have been friends at high school . We both went to Penn State together , so have some shared Penn State love as well and have kept in touch all these years and are good friends , talk sports all the time . Amongst other things , nick has been doing podcasting for a while . So when I decided I wanted to give this whole thing a try , he was my go to person to how do I , how do I do this thing ? And again , without his help the show wouldn't exist . So , attitude of gratitude for Nick .

Speaker 1 3:13

To round out , the other two ground roles that we have , of course , is actions , not Jackson's . And learn , don't burn . So we're going to dive into Mike Tomlin in depth , but the point of this show is not to say he's a good leader , a bad leader , anything in between . It's to talk about a number of his actions and extract key leadership lessons from that , both good and bad , so that we can apply them to our day to day . Alright , nick , let's jump into it . So what I wanted to do first was give a little bit of Tomlin's background and just his number of years with Steelers , kind of record things that are going on . Do you mind sharing some of that for us ?

Speaker 2 3:56

Sure , I mean , mike Tomlin was hired about what ? 17 years ago , 17 seasons ago , very the youngest coach to be hired in the NFL at the time replacing . Here's the thing about the Pittsburgh Steelers We've had three coaches in . I mean , how many in six decades ? Right , like we had Chuck Null from the 60s , I think , and then he was the coach all the way up to the early 90s and then we got Bill Cower and then he coached for cheese 15 years . And then we brought on Mike Tomlin and it was wild , because you know , you and I don't know what it's like for other franchises to have a constant coaching carousel or even have a coach on the hot seat . It's funny . And Pittsburgh , where the Steelers will lose a game and people are like , oh , I think it might be time to fire Tom , like no , it's not , guys , relax , guys never had a losing season . Calm down . So basically , we bring this guy in to replace two Hall of Fame legend coaches and so far , so good . You know he's coached for 17 seasons . He's never had a losing season . You know he has .

Speaker 2 5:14

He played ball . He actually played college ball , william and Mary against players that he would eventually coach , and then he went on to be like wide receivers coach and then defensive backs coach at Arkansas State and Cincinnati . Then he got the bump up to defensive backs coach at Tampa Bay Bucks , who were winning Super Bowls , and coached Ronde Barber . For those who know , he just made the Hall of Fame . Then he got the defensive coordinator gig in Minnesota with the Vikings for only one year and he had such a good buzz about him that the Steelers scooped them up and man , how fortuitous that was for the franchise , because he's been our head coach ever since .

Speaker 1 5:59

Yeah , thanks for the backdrop , Nick . To round out the record a little bit through the 2022 season 163 , 93 and 2 . So 636 winning percentage , notably never winning or never losing season . There were three , eight and eight seasons . Won the Super Bowl in 2008 as the youngest coach to do it , at age 36 , and then lost the Super Bowl in 2010 . That was Aaron Rodgers Super Bowl win . Overall playoff record eight and nine last playoff win in 2016 .

Speaker 2 6:34

I'd just like to clarify something there . Nate , you said it was the Aaron Rodgers Super Bowl win . I know it as the Rashard Mendenhall Super Bowl loss .

Speaker 1 6:42

So just wanted to say that , yeah , thanks for cleaning that up . All right , so we got about five key lessons that we're going to dive into , nick , and the thing that you have to start with with Mike Tomlin is around expectations , clear expectations , and the phrase that is often repeated and is now in the Steelers locker room and there's a Steelers TV show about it is the standard , is the standard . He talks all about the standard , so I'm going to play a clip to start us off where he's talking a little bit about what that means and how he sets the clears of expectation of what their job is as football operation .

Speaker 3 7:26

Football is our game , our business is winning and our intentions are to handle business . That's what the standard is .

Speaker 1 7:32

The standard means every single time I say All right , football is our game , our business is winning and we expect to handle business . So tell me what you think about this crystal clear expectation of the standard . Is the standard . What does that mean to you ?

Speaker 2 7:47

Well , I think the funny part is it's if you really think about it's not crystal clear , it's kind of open for interpretation If you really sit and think about it for a while . I mean , the standard is a standard . What does that mean ? I don't know . What is that ? What is the standard ? Well , you're the Pittsburgh Steelers . You are one of the winningest franchises of all time . Like mentioned before , there's only been two coaches before you . Really , the bar is set extremely high and that's the standard . There is no second place . You know there is no . Oh well , at least we got a moral victory . The standard is the standard . We are the Pittsburgh Steelers .

Speaker 2 8:27

You have to go and achieve at a certain level every time you're out there , and it is a business , you know . There there's a certain way you have to carry yourself when you're on this team . The character of a player goes so far in that locker room with Mike Tomlin that that is also the standard . So when he says football is our game , our business is winning , he's talking about two separate standards and once again , this is my interpretation , so feel free to disagree . But there's two standards there .

Speaker 2 9:03

It's the level of play when you're on the field with the X's and O's and how you prepare , but then there's also the way you have to carry yourself as a man off the field , because that standard is just as high , because that's the business side of things , and I think Mike Tomlin has made it abundantly clear what type of player he's looking for . And , as you know , some players have hit the door because they didn't fit one half of those standards . You could be the best wide receiver in the league and set records , but if you are not doing the business side of things , even though business was booming and I think you know who I'm alluding to hey , ab , there's the door because you didn't fit the standard .

Speaker 1 9:49

Yeah , thanks for breaking that down , nick . A couple things come to mind . So , macro level expectation is winning and winning Super Bowls , and he doesn't shy away from the high bar that that is as a part of the organization . I like to say that high performers like high expectations . So if you , as the leader , are setting mediocre expectations and you have a bar in the middle of the tier , you're going to attract people that like mediocrity . Right , I like that . He sets a high bar .

Speaker 1 10:18

The second piece that you're alluding to is there's individual standards and we have a clip we'll look at later . But it's this idea that each player , regardless of your third string , first string or whatever it is , the expectation is the same . And if you are in man coverage , you're expected to cover , you're expected to make the tackle . If you have assignment football , you're expected to hit the assignment . I like that . There is a clear expectation on a macro level and on an individual level , and that's something that we can take back as leaders . I'm going to play a clip now of him talking at a team meeting , so this is a clip from that . Show the standard that the Steelers produce , and it's a nice way that he is talking in the off season about what is expected on an individual level . So let's take a listen . This is a little bit of a longer clip , but let's listen in .

Speaker 3 11:08

Man in the growth and development of this thing . Man , I'm talking to you about norms , expectations , mindsets mindsets that you should have , and it's always good to acknowledge reasonable expectations . I expect you get better in all areas , man , whether it's the knowledge relative to what it is that you do , the maintenance and the preparation of your body , the understanding of the game , et cetera , et cetera , et cetera . You need to continually be a guy on the rise . That is a reasonable expectation , as opposed to just coming in here putting in time . What do I mean by that ? I mean the things that made you viable in the past aren't going to be the things that make you viable moving forward . You better be continually getting better . As long as you're sitting in rooms like this , I ain't doing my job if I'm not pointing that out .

Speaker 3 12:00

You guys that have been here and know what it's about , man , we expect you to be significantly better . Hear the words you , a young guy . Man , we might have tolerated mental errors A year ago . We'll have less tolerance for it moving forward . It's just a reasonable expectation . And so let's just be really transparent , man , about expectations in this business , about how competitive it is . I never want you worrying about people on the outside , even the man sitting next to you . This is a man versus himself battle . You got to be continually pressing to get better with that , understanding that this is a highly competitive line of work that we're in .

Speaker 1 12:49

All right , Nick , what's your favorite part from that clip ?

Speaker 2 12:51

I mean I'm about to run through a wall right now . I mean I love the fact that he is , you know , obviously setting the standard , but this is so personalized , on a generic level , if that makes any sense . Every person in that room was being talked to individually because the assignment was to personally get better every day and that you don't have to worry about people talking about you losing your job . You don't have to look at the guy behind you on depth chart , you have to worry about the guy in the mirror and if you are not putting in the work and you know , once you get to the pro level and that's the thing about Mike Tomlin , I think , and I would love to hear how you would kind of relate this to our everyday business life he is .

Embracing Competition and Continuous Growth

Speaker 2 13:49

He doesn't pretend we're pros , we're all pro ball players here . We're not going to coddle you , we're not going to pretend that this is something that it's not . It is what it is . And if you aren't , you know what it has , you know what it takes to get to that level . Because you got there . Now you have to maintain and continuously get better and better and better , and if you don't , then there's then someone's going to come in and take your spot , and I think he doesn't run . He's what's his , what's his favorite . We don't . We don't run away , we run towards it . And that's one of the classic examples of that is like if you aren't getting better , if you aren't the one putting in the time and the effort and the energy to make yourself better , then you're not going to be in this league much longer and we're not going to shy away from that . It is what it is . The standard is the standard 100% .

Speaker 1 14:40

A couple of things for the leaders out there of how to bring this into your day to day . I do one on one's weekly , at most every other week , and I don't always remember to do this , but if I'm at my best . I asked my team member at the end of the one on one what's one thing you learned since we last talked . So there is this expectation amongst my team that you are going to be acquiring new skills and that you're going to share those with me , because it's not okay to stay status quo . If we're staying the same , we're getting worse . That whole concept is something I try to infuse into the culture .

Speaker 1 15:14

There's been times in my career where I've had to help people to zoom out . If you're in a company that can be insular or you have folks that have tenure , that would be like you're just scrimmaging all the time and you were the Steelers , but you never played anyone except in practice . So the comparison is just amongst the people . In your room there's only the wide receiver room is five people deep , or whatever it would be .

Speaker 1 15:40

I've at times had to help my team to understand that we're not just competing against the people in our company . We're competing against all the people in our industry , across the entire world , across industries . Those people are grinding , those people are working to acquire new skills . If we're just doing what we've always done and how we've always done it , we're being left behind . I think Mike does a really nice job of making it about competition , but also making it about competition about yourself . You alluded to that , nick , that this is a man versus himself situation , where you are trying to compete and you are trying to get better every day . If you can infuse that into the mindset of your team and they are acquiring new skills , they will continue to grow and your collective group will beat the competition . So that really stands out to me .

Speaker 2 16:31

Yeah , I think it's important to also recognize that . We're using the analogy of the NFL and football players , and it's easy to . When I say you have to work on yourself and put in the time , it's like , oh , what's that mean ? Running extra sprints and lifting extra weight and doing this and watching more film ? Yeah , we all understand that , but how does that make I can't lift , I can't go to the gym and get better at my job ? That's not how it works .

Speaker 2 16:56

Well , I think it's also important to know that when you aren't in the NFL and you're in the everyday job and employee or employer leader or whatever , that means to me that putting in , putting in the extra work is also like the willingness to try new things and the ability to get better and grow . You will never grow as a person , as an employee , as a leader , as an artist for those who may not know , I work in the entertainment business . As an artist you have to be willing to get out of the complacency . That is the work , that is the effort , that's the gym . Going to trying something new is putting in an extra rep at the gym , or trying something new is running extra sprints . That's what that means in everyday life .

Speaker 1 18:01

I love it . I'll make one comment here that'll move us on to part two AI and everything that's happening with that . That's an easy thing to be very afraid of and kind of bury your head in the sand . Admittedly , I'm probably one of those people that I wish I could go back 20 years and imagine these things aren't happening but they are and challenging yourself to get better , getting in the gym and reading about it and testing it out and trying it and jumping on to chat GPT and seeing what happens . There's a million things like that in your job and your profession that you can try to ignore and try not to learn about , or you can dive in and try and get ahead of the curve . Everyone listening , think about what's one thing that you've kind of noticed that is an emerging trend or an emerging thing that's going to be important in your industry and your business that you maybe not have spent the time to learn about . And dive in there and read a book , listen to a podcast , do something , all right .

Reinforcing Expectations and Accountability

Speaker 1 18:56

Part two he sets this expectation that the standard is the standard , but expectations are not a set it and forget it phenomenon .

Speaker 1 19:05

I first referenced Tomlin in episode one , which was about accountability . In that I make the point that accountability is not what people think it is . It's not about getting people in trouble . Accountability is about aligning expectations with outcomes . You can't just set an expectation and then expect it to happen . You have to continually reinforce it . And Mike tries to reinforce things in very colorful , vivid language and metaphors and analogies . I'm going to play the first one here , a clip of how he reinforces this expectation day in and day out .

Speaker 3 19:41

Don't blink . If you're a blinker , cut your eyelids off . This is not going to be for the faint of heart . Don't blink , let's go . Don't blink ever . Don't blink , ever . Cut your eyelids off . Cut your eyelids off . Here I saw a couple of y'all blinking , though for real . No , no , no , I'll talk to you about it .

Speaker 1 20:06

All right , so we're not blinking and we're even cutting our eyelids off , Nick . What does that mean ? What's ? Going on here .

Speaker 2 20:12

It's just it's almost to the point of like . I think he's taking it a little too far , but it's the focus , it's the you know , don't like if do you ever play the game when you were a kid of you know , flinch , don't flinch , like ? That's kind of what it is Like if you're about to get punched in the face . Lean into it , like , don't blink , don't flinch , don't like cower away . Lean into it , like don't in fact cut your eyelids off . If you think you're just automatically going to do it . You have to . You have to be as focused and ready to go and take on anything and everything that's thrown at you and , head on , like , not even just like , don't even just be standing there waiting for it , go and get it . Go after and get it . At least that's what I'm interpreting the phrase of you know , don't blink , you know , basically , don't flinch , go , go and get it , go , beat a disrupter , don't get disrupted .

Speaker 1 21:11

Yeah , it's interesting , right . So instead of saying all that stuff , he could just say focus , stay focused , stay focused . And focus is kind of a subjective in your head thing .

Speaker 1 21:21

He tries really hard to take the nebulous conceptual concept and make it extremely practical and procedural and behavioral . He's taken this idea of stay focused and turned it into don't blink and you can kind of physically feel that idea of like your eyes are open and you keep them open and you can't miss anything , you can't flinch , no matter how difficult the situation is , no matter how much the adversity is . He talks a lot about not letting adversity affect us and then he just let your point . He takes it like seven steps after that and so cut your eyelids off so it's impossible to blink . And I think that the point of that is , if you are having trouble focusing , do whatever it takes to force yourself to focus .

Speaker 2 22:11

I also think that on the business side of things , a catchphrase is great . Don't forget the power of marketing . Having a catchphrase , having a slogan , a logo , a tagline , anything you can to kind of like really just give an entire message with three to five words , I mean that is so important . It's marketing 101 . In fact , what it is , and here's a little foreshadowing to the next episode you and I will do on this show . Pro Wrestling is a big fan of catchphrases . I mean they print up t-shirts every other day for them . It's because it tells a story , it tells the idea , it tells the motto in just a quick couple words and you can really get a lot across with just a simple phrase .

Speaker 1 23:05

I got a quick example . One of the things I've been pressing as a key objective on my team is to use data more . We work in training and leadership development . It's easy to just roll out a class and then hope it went well , maybe do a survey and leave it at that . And one thing I want the team to do is to be more data minded and understand ways in which we can have insights to how things are going , how well we're developing people , how well our changes are being adopted or not , and shout out to Jade and Julie on my team . They came up with a slogan data is dope which is a little bit of a throwback to when you and I grew up and that was a cool way to say things . But data is dope is something now we've repeated . They've asked me for t-shirts about it , but it's a thing that has been reinforced and throughout this year , we're nine , 10 months in and data is more prevalent in our conversations . So , to the point of don't blank . Data is dope . Whatever that is for you and what your objectives are , pull one out , say it repeated often , put it on a t-shirt , put it on a screensaver , put it on a flyer , see it , talk about it and you'll bring it to life .

Speaker 1 24:19

Expectations are not a set it and forget it paradigm . They are constant reinforcement . All right , I am going to play our next clip that we have , so don't blink is a kind of in the moment right , reminding people of that expectation , reminding people to focus . There's also the accountability pieces . You have the result and then you talk about the result and how well did the expectation match the result ? This is an interesting clip from a press conference in the COVID year of 2020 . The Steelers just beat the Ravens , where they had a bunch of backups . It was like a weird Wednesday game because things got all moved around , but this took them to an 11 and 0 record , but they did not play well at all . Here is Tomlin's press conference after that game .

Speaker 3 25:06

To be bluntly honest , I'm really disappointed in our performance tonight . We did enough to win , but that's all . It was really junior varsity , to be quite honest with you , and it was in all three phases . We couldn't run the ball effectively when we needed to . We dropped too many significant passes very catchable , makeable passes . We didn't make significant plays in the special teams game . Our kickoff covers unit wasn't good enough . We turned it all over . We gave up big plays in critical moments . On defense Can't have it . They converted a long run on a possession down before the half unacceptable . They had a 70 yard touchdown late in the game unacceptable .

Speaker 1 25:42

Okay , unacceptable . They won the game 1914 , but it was junior varsity . Nick , what do you take away from that press conference ?

Speaker 2 25:52

Seen pretty angry . When you get Tom and that fired up for the media , I can only imagine what it was like in the locker room . But what he's doing is he's keeping the door closed . He's keeping the seal closed of excuses . You know he doesn't want .

Speaker 2 26:11

As soon as you open the door and you allow one excuse to slippery slope , it starts just piling up like oh well , you know it's COVID , or oh , you know it's a Wednesday , or oh well , we had our backup in . It's like it doesn't . As soon as you , as soon as you allow one excuse , then you allow them all and he is shutting that down immediately . It does not matter . And not only is he not shutting it down , he is going as far as I don't want to say ridiculing , because he's not , but he's putting the team on blast Like this is JV , this was junior varsity performance , and that is not acceptable .

Speaker 2 26:51

And he is just pounding home the fact that what you just did does not matter the circumstance , it matters the outcome and it's just . Yeah , it's one of those press conference that , like as a fan , it scared me because it was like uh-oh , this is , the wheels might be falling off this 11-0 start , and it sure did , but you got to give him credit . He saw it coming a mile away and he stopped it . He stopped the excuses before it could even start .

Speaker 1 27:30

Yeah , I want to dive into the excuses piece because that's going to be our third segment in a second

Setting Expectations and Handling Excuses

Speaker 1 27:36

. Before we do a couple things I liked was reinforcing the expectations and how they were below the line . So he says junior varsity is we didn't play up to the standard of professional football team . He says we couldn't run the ball . So there's a certain expectation and probably yards per carry , total yards per game type of expectation that they expect to have Dropped passes . He says things make the routine plays routinely . That means catching the ball when it's thrown to you . He said that was below . We fumbled the ball in special teams Unacceptable . They had a 70-yard touchdown play so we were out of position for that to happen Unacceptable . He's reinforcing here's what we expect from you and here's how we were below the line . Here's how we were junior varsity in those events .

Speaker 1 28:25

And it's hard to do , but it is sometimes one of the most powerful things you can do is say to one of your employees that you are not meeting my expectations on this or this is below my expectations . And again , that doesn't mean that Mike Tomlin's going to cut that person . That doesn't mean if you say this is below my expectations and allowing a 70-yard touchdown , that you're going to fire someone , but it does mean that you're going to say , hey , what happened here in this presentation or in this work product is below my expectations . I am here to help you and coach you get to my expectations , but I'm not okay with you hanging out below the line . And being able to say that , and say that in an authentic way to your team is the pathway to accountability , and that's a super important thing .

Speaker 2 29:10

Nick , before we go ahead , the one thing I just want to elaborate on . That is , mike Tomlin is not one or he is one to always give credit where credit is due and he understands that it's a fight and it's a battle and that the other team is going to score the other team . When there is a special talent coming into the stadium , that's another one of his fate . Into the stadium , you know he will be Mr Chubb . Cause of Mr Chubb , because he gives him respect . He's the best running back in the league , devonte Adams , or when he's talking about Vaughn Miller and referring to him as a freak , he's like an alien because he's like out of this world type of talent he understands and sets the expectation of .

Speaker 2 29:53

These guys across the field are very good and they're pros as well . And to think that they're not going to score points or that they're also not going to be good , that's silly . You're not going to . You just can't do that . You know I'm getting off on a tangent , but friend of the show , zach Phillips . Him and I used to play high school football together and our coaches I'll always remember this our coaches told us once that every offensive play that we have is designed to score a touchdown and yet every defensive play we have is designed to shut down the other team , and it made Zach's analytical brain explode .

Speaker 2 30:36

It was one of the funniest things like , but that can't work . That's not how it works . They're exact shut up . You're too smart for this . But anyway , I'm sorry I'm going off on a tangent , but the point is , is the excuse there is no excuse that , like you have to control what you can control , the other team's going to get theirs , but we are going to prepare because we know how good they are and that if you aren't doing the things that you're supposed to do , that's unacceptable .

Speaker 1 31:04

Yeah , it's interesting I didn't play the clip , but there's a press conference where reporters Pittsburgh media was essentially asking Tomlin about a player that had been struggling that started to look better in practice Right , and I think trying to boost that player up , see some positivity , see on the rise and Tomlin's response was we're evaluated based on what we do in stadiums . And then he just stops talking and that is the expectation is our business is winning . We have to win in stadiums . It doesn't matter if you do a million things in practice . If it doesn't translate , it doesn't count , and that doesn't mean the preparation and practice isn't important , but we are evaluated based on what we do in stadiums . And that's again that colorful language to reinforce his expectations of our businesses winning .

Speaker 1 31:55

All right , let's let's piggyback on what you were teeing up there , Nick , around the excuses . So part three is how do you handle excuses and how do you make that not a part of your day to day and every leader has experienced excuses of someone showing up late , someone not meeting your expectations , and if you let them start to make excuses and then you make excuses for them , you're basically caving your standards and you're not going to have the ultimate success that you want . The first clip I want to play is again from that COVID season and it's a conversation around shifting schedules . The Steelers were playing a team that all got COVID , so they shifted around when the game would be in bi-week and everything . So let's hear what Mike has to say around that .

Speaker 3 32:45

You know , my opinion does not matter . We take marching orders from the national football league . We understand that they're acting in our collective best interest .

Speaker 1 32:53

Mike , what is your reaction to potentially playing 13 straight weeks ?

Speaker 3 32:59

We do not care .

Speaker 1 33:01

All right , a very quotable and memeable comment from Mike . We do not care , nick . What can we take from that ?

Speaker 2 33:10

Once again . Shut down the excuse as soon as you . What do you want them to say ? You know that's the one thing about the media that I always love . You know they're just doing their job .

Leadership and Accountability in Sports

Speaker 2 33:21

But like , what do you want these guys to say hey coach , how do you feel about playing 13 weeks ? I don't know , it's rough . Can we take a mulligan on that one ? Who do I got to talk to so we can get a day off here , like , of course , and the fact , but the fact that he doesn't . It's how he says it . It's three words , four words , it's we do not care , it's not , he didn't go .

Speaker 2 33:48

Well , you know the NFL tells us what we have to do and unfortunately , that's just the circumstances that we've been dealt . You know we're going to prepare as hard as we can and we'll do the best that we can . No , none of that , none of that . Hey coach , how do you feel about playing 13 straight weeks ? We do not care . Period the end , move on .

Speaker 2 34:08

Next question . I mean that to me , it's not even how and that's a leadership quality that I think he possesses that we can all take . It's knowing what to say , when to say , but how to say it , how you get your point across . That means almost more . You know body language , just your tone of voice . It could go the negative way too . You know how many times have you been trying to get your team to do something but you're in a bad mood or you're tired and it just doesn't have the energy . No one's going to listen to you . But if you come in and you're you're not blinking and you're the one who's got the energy and you're like , hey , I don't care , standard is standard , we're doing what we got to do .

Speaker 2 34:49

Your team's going to pick up that energy , and I think Mike , tom and probably underrated in the sense of his ability to drop these gems that he drops all the time his catchphrases , if you will .

Speaker 1 35:03

I love that . You said that . I think there's a lot of coaches in that situation would have taken the easy way out and said something similar to what you said that you know it's unfortunate situation we're going to do . He makes it crystal clear that I don't want to hear any of that and I this hit home for me when I was prepping for the episode of a lot of stuff happening right Return to office . Changes are happening and I think I probably can do a better job of having more Mike Tomlin like responses to the situations that an excuse is a possibility because , to your point , people are taking their cues from the leader . So if Tomlin gives an inch of doubt or an inch of an excuse to be made , the players are going to take that and double and triple it , and me , as a leader for my team , same thing . If I give a little bit of an excuse or frustration , they're going to take that and double and triple it . It's a tough responsibility to be the leader , but it's the power to positively influence others , get them focused on the thing that's most important and help to drive them forward . And he extends this idea of not letting things be an excuse all the time we're recording this early in the 2023 season .

Speaker 1 36:17

After week three , the Steelers were flying back from Vegas in a Sunday night game and they had issues with the plane where they had to make an emergency landing in Kansas City . They got delayed . They didn't get back to Pittsburgh until eight hours later . They already had a night game . You know these weeks in the NFL are so . There's such a regimen to them that losing eight hours is a big deal . And he made it a point to say we're not making any excuses about that . It's an unfortunate thing that happened and we move on and he just cuts it dead at that , and he does that so many times . And I think that's one of my favorite things about him is that he does not let people divert attention to other things , and I myself want to take that away and emulate more of that .

Speaker 2 36:59

Well , that's also because he is a Swifty little known fact , mike Tomlin big fan of Taylor Swift . So they decided to stop in Kansas City to say hi to her . But they didn't want that to get out there as an excuse as well . So that's , they came up with the quote unquote plane issues , but it was just he wanted to say hi to Taylor Smooth .

Speaker 1 37:18

Keep that under the radar .

Speaker 2 37:20

Yeah , you know , he's a , he's a smooth operator .

Speaker 1 37:23

Moving on to part four and you alluded to this a little bit too , nick clarity in his words he leaves . No doubt you talked about Antonio Brown . Business was booming for a while and then it left town and he's out of the league , so there is a certain expectation of the way players handle themselves . Another player that left town recently is Chase Claypole on a play .

Speaker 2 37:52

A quick clip regarding Mr Claypole Mike Claypole suggested yesterday that he needs to . He would like to have more fun at practice , maybe play some music . I'm suggesting you're not going to oblige his request .

Speaker 3 38:06

Well , you know , Claypool plays wide out and I'll let him do that . I'll formulate the practice approach and I think that division of labor is probably appropriate .

Speaker 1 38:20

It's so good , I love it . The end he just says the words , stops and then waits for someone to react and just says and then he gets up and leaves the press

Clarity and Bridge-Building in Coaching

Speaker 1 38:31

conference . Nick , what do you take away about that in terms of clarity that Mike is demonstrating in that comment ?

Speaker 2 38:39

That's , this is the . This is the fine line that Mike also or , excuse me , Mr Tomlin , Like I said , I don't know the guy . He is very clear and precise and he doesn't skirt around issues , but he's also very careful to not ridicule or throw another man under the bus . That is one of the . He is a player's coach . Everybody wants to play for him . Everybody respects him because he treats everybody like a human being and a man . So he could have dogged Claypool there , but he didn't . But he also . But he also did .

Speaker 2 39:23

Does that make sense ? Like he it was a ridiculous thing to say at the time Chase Claypool was not doing well and kind of had a little bit of an attitude problem and some off the field issues . So you could clearly tell that he's in the doghouse and when he has this golden opportunity to really crush this guy , he doesn't . But yet he makes it very clear that I'm the coach , You're the wide receiver . Let's keep it that way . And it was just clear , concise . It's like we do not care .

Speaker 2 39:58

Once again , it's how he said it , how he delivered , that that really just drove home the fact that I'm not going to listen to whatever this punk is saying . And for those who do not know , I had this podcast , that football show , formerly the Rust Belt Rivals . I was on the anti-Chase Claypool train when we drafted him , Was not a fan of this kid from day one and he just kept proving me right and right and right . By the way , Chicago Bears have never won a game while Chase Claypool has been on their roster Just throwing that little nugget out there . But to go back to what Tomlin was doing , how he said it , he walked that tightrope of respecting the man but keeping the player in check , and I think that he's one of the best ever do it in that aspect .

Speaker 1 40:50

Yeah , I'm gonna play a next clip and I want you to listen to the way he ends the clip for this one , and then I'm gonna comment on that after .

Speaker 4 40:59

Mike , at any point in your coaching career Did you ever have an interest or express an interest in being a head coach in the college game , and do you have any idea how that may or may not have led to folks like Ryan and Doug Whaley and Carson Palmer connecting you to some college jobs ?

Speaker 3 41:15

Hey guys , I don't have time for that speculation . I mean , that's a joke to me . I got one of the best jobs and in all of professional sport , why would I have any interest in coaching college football ? That'll be the last time that I address it , and not only today . But moving forward never say never but never . Okay , anybody else got any questions about any . College jobs is not a booster with a big enough blank check .

Speaker 1 41:52

All right , he never say never but never and there's not a booster with a big enough blank check . Again , at your company , on your team , there is going to be speculation of things happening . People are gonna think changes are happening for this reason or that reason , which is not true . People were speculating that Mike Tomlin might want to take the USC job and Go into college football and there were real reports around it and this is the first time he was directly asked about it .

Speaker 1 42:26

And again , the clarity of leave no doubt , never , say never but never , and there is not a booster with a big enough blank check that then all of the Sports media is now commenting on how precisely he says that and it completely , completely went away . Now there could be situations where you're not in a never type of scenario and there is some possibility that you're gonna do this or do that . But when there's not be as clear as Mike , think around the clarity of the situation , clarity of what you can say so that you leave no doubt , and the sound bite that you leave , that is then gonna be repeated amongst the rumor mill , the power of the nugget and the comment that goes out into the rumor mill . You can't Overstate that when you're asked a question like that or when you're oppressed , try to leave something as powerful as Mike Nick . What do you got on that ?

Speaker 2 43:20

I would say , though this is . This is a perfect example for anyone to To not do what my Tom and did , because I assure you , as you listen to this podcast , you are not the head coach of wanting the winningest franchises in all of sports . You do not have one of the greatest jobs in business . I'm telling you that right now I'm sorry folks , I hate the burst or bubble here and I mean nothing by it , but Don't , don't say never in your job hunt .

Speaker 2 43:57

Always keep the door open in your job hunt , and but , with that being said , what you can take away from it and what Nate just said , is Don't burn bridges . You'd never know who you're talking to . You'd never know where the journey is gonna take you in five years . You'd never know that this opportunity , the you'd never , you'd never know . So always act as if that you Keep the door open and you all . You're always looking for the next big thing , but you're gonna need the people behind you right now to help boost you into that , into that future step . So don't burn bridges , don't say never , and Just you know , unless you become the head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers , I'm assuming you're gonna want to keep your eyes open and maybe stay a positive Course in your job hunt .

Speaker 1 44:49

Yep , well said , all right

Motivating Players and Building Connections

Speaker 1 44:52

. Moving on to Part five , and I'm actually gonna throw in a part six to before we get to some fun at the end . Part five is on motivation . Interestingly , if you look at Tomlin's against the spread record and even his straight-up record , he has one of the best records of all time as an underdog . So he gets his players up when they are picked to lose , but he has one of the absolute worst abysmal records of all time when his team is favored by More than a touchdown and especially when more than 10 points , meaning he lets his team play down to the level of competition and for anyone , that's sweat every stealer game over the last two Decades . Like Nick and I , they're used to playing down to bad teams . So he does something really interesting with motivation . I have a clip on a plane a minute . But before I do that , nick , what do you take from how Mike motivates his players ?

Speaker 2 45:55

Well , you know , that's a . It's a little tricky for how you set this up because , yes , we play down as a Steelers . They play down to the level of the competition . So you would think that obviously he's not doing a good job motivating , but I say this all the time when it comes to getting Men who make millions of dollars to play a game , he is the best to ever do it . It's why he is a good coach . Now you want to talk about his ability to challenge a call or cloth management . I'm sure Nate and I could have a side conversation on that for hours . However , when it comes to motivating grown men To play a game who already have millions of dollars in the bank , he is the best to ever do it , and I think it's a . It's his reputation Is what gives me comfortability , and saying that Nick ?

Speaker 1 46:57

what do you think it is ? What does he do that ? What have you picked up on over these years ? What are some things that he does to motivate men to go above and beyond ? Well , I think he .

Speaker 2 47:09

He Doesn't over motivate , if that's a thing you know for well . First , you know I talked about it earlier he gives respect to the team that comes in . Does not matter if you are the Kansas City Chiefs or the Houston Texans . You are a professional football player . You've gotten to this level for a reason you everybody here is the best of the best and he acknowledges that . So In his eyes , being a favorite or an underdog doesn't exist , and I think that is apparent .

Speaker 2 47:39

When he can , he can go into any stadium and Beat any team , and go into any stadium and lose to any team , and I think that is why his record reflects the way it does is because he doesn't look at these , these teams , as oh my god , it's Philadelphia Eagles , oh we better , we better prepare hard this week . No , he prepares the same way every week because the the Tennessee Titans and the Jacksonville Jaguars and the Indianapolis Colts Are professional football players . So are the Kansas City Chiefs and the Dallas Cowboys . So I think that's the reason why he has those records and that level of respect is what helps motivate and he makes the guy , he makes the individual Motivate themselves . He gives them the tools to motivate themselves . And if they don't , then , as we said , they'll be out of league or off the team .

Speaker 2 48:38

At least , the only time I think he ever Changes things up a little bit is when it's an AFC North rivalry game , because then it's a little bit of extra , an extra oomph , but that's just . That's also part of it , part of the business of hey , you play these guys twice a year , every year , we know each other a little bit better . So , yes , they are different , but everybody else it's . It's a group of professional football players and I Think , like I said , I don't know the guy , I've never been in a locker room . I can't sit here and say , yes , that's why , but that would be my theory .

Speaker 1 49:13

Yeah , I think mutual respect . For sure , he calls AFC North ball the kitchen . They like the heat of the kitchen , so I always get a chuckle out of that . I think he connects with players on a really deep level too . I'm gonna play a quick clip from Ryan Clark . It's the pivot podcast where he and Mike are talking and this is related to Ryan Clark playing in Denver , which I can give more detail on after .

Speaker 3 49:40

The last time we was in Denver , man it's dude almost died right . We were in the defensive staff room . You stopped at the door and talked to us man . He looked like he was about a hundred and sixty five pounds . I was 160 man . I went to Asherman man , that was scary man but I wanted to go play again .

Speaker 5 49:55

I wanted to play in Denver and I had a symbol of this team together and I was like we're about to go in this . I was like I got it . I was like everything that you're telling me , you just got to go tell Mike team and they're gonna Let me play . And he stops in the middle and he says something to me , man , and I'll always be grateful for he's like if you were my kid , I wouldn't be having this conversation .

Speaker 3 50:15

It was my job to care about that dude in that moment , even maybe more so than he cared about himself . I got an obligation To safeguard to the best of my ability .

Speaker 1 50:26

What do you take from that ? That ? Just a little bit of history . Ryan Clark had a particular Gene that when he was in playing in Denver he had a very scary incident . A couple years later they're playing in Denver again and he felt like he got it medically figured out and was all ready to play and Mike basis said you're not playing and Explain that there . What do you take from that exchange ?

Speaker 2 50:50

It's nice to know that . You know the humanity comes before the business . I also this is this may be silly , but I just like the fact that he refers to him is I had a responsibility to take care of that dude and like he's very casual , you know , and then I think that's why the players respect him . He talks to them and about them the same way . Like he doesn't put on a front , you know , maybe , maybe when he knows that the cameras aren't rolling and he's talking about the New England Patriots , he has a little bit more colorful Furby edge as a B once a spite on him , if you remember that . But he talks the way he talks . He is who he is . The standard is the standard and I think that is a , that clip as much as like look what , what he did , it was noble and great and blah , blah , blah .

Speaker 2 51:44

But I think a lot of people would have done it like , look , man , you can't play . The last time you were here you almost died . We're , we're putting your health before the team in the game , like I think that that goes like , yeah , kudos . But I think a lot of people would have done it . It's how he talks about it , how he says it . It's how he says yeah , I was , I was . You know , I gotta take care of that dude . Like that's his dude , that's his man , that's his guy . He's not just number 25 , you know , mr Mr Clark , like it's that's a guy he sees every day . You know , he , he's a human being and I think the fact that Mike tommon Doesn't differentiate between that sometimes is what makes him so well loved and respected .

Speaker 1 52:29

Yeah , you hear a lot of players talk about . You hear him described as a players coach Interestingly before he was shipped out as a clip of Claypole saying that . You know , mike asks us about our family and he really means it and not a lot of people take the time to do that . So he connects on a deep level at something we all can do better at to make you feel like , as Ryan said , like if this was my son wouldn't have the conversation , and that's how he makes his players feel . So I think the motivation to connect , but the way in which you say it and how you can talk to someone as if you know they are on the same level but still have the respect of you're the leader that's the secret sauce and I think he does that really well .

Speaker 2 53:12

Yeah , remember that . You know your team are People . They're human beings . They have the same . They have to wake up every day and go to bed every night . They have families they have every day . They have to get to work . They have to go through traffic . They have to go through , you know , take the subway to work . They have to deal with Everything that you're dealing with on a personal level too , and as much as you want to keep personal life away from business , don't forget that these are human beings and not just team members . They're not your team . They're people that go through the same stuff that you go through , and Probably more so . I think that's the takeaway from this is that you know Mike Thomas , the coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers , and these are professional athletes that make millions of dollars . There are also men and humans that have emotions and have to deal with stuff too , so I think that's the takeaway here .

Speaker 1 54:10

All right , pivoting to part six , and this is being a leader of leaders . A A difficult transition for a lot of people is going from a frontline leader , where you have only Individual contributors reporting to you , to leader of leaders , where you lead a team of leaders that then have either more leaders or individual contributors . The way to think about that in a sports context in the NFL is the coordinators right and the rest of the staff . So Tomlin is the leader of the staff and We've given pretty glowing , positive remarks about Mike .

Speaker 1 54:46

An area that I have questions about and the results is his succession tree , his , his coaching tree , and when his coordinators have gone or not , afterwards , the hires he's made For anyone paying any attention , even in the national media . The offensive coordinator coordinator right now , matt Canada , is Heavily under fire , to the point that fire Canada chance are breaking out in the stadium . If you look back at his coaching tree , really the only one that's ever gone on to Be a head coach is Bruce Arians , who ironically , retired Following his stint with the Steelers because I think they wanted to have him land softly without firing him , but then he really wanted to continue coaching and eventually became a successful head coach and won the Super Bowl with the Bucks . Nick , talk to me about Tomlin's coaching tree and what we can learn from this in terms of him being a leader of leaders .

Speaker 2 55:46

Well , it's not good . If you want to look at it that way , that it's not so much a tree as it is a weed , I Don't you know . I can Ask me this today at four o'clock if we lose to the Texans , I'll have a whole new , whole new take on it . I Don't you . I think coaching trees are Overblown sometimes . I think it's . I think when they exist , they're awesome . Well , I think the fact that the , the Mike Shanahan coaching tree , or the , the Bill Walsh coaching tree , or even the Bella check coaching tree , like I think what that is . But here's the question I have , though how many of these coaching trees are actually successful ? You know a lot of like built Bella checks guys . They go out , they suck , they end up going back to college or they end up becoming a coordinator again for the Patriots .

The Role of a Head Coach

Speaker 2 56:45

You know , being a head coach is not the guy who was deciding on what play to call . You're the , their boss . You have to make sure that they're doing their job . Being a head coach is so much more . You have to make sure that the players are acting accordingly and that the coaches are acting accordingly . You are the , the stop , the gap between ownership , the fans , the media and then everything else that goes on in between .

Speaker 2 57:17

So that is a skill set that I don't know a lot of people have , and that just because you're a good offensive coordinator Does not mean that you're going to succeed as a leader , being a brainiac and knowing and being able to to call plays . That's why , like Sean McVeigh , he's the offensive coordinator , don't get it twisted . He's the one calling the plays . I don't know if he's the one leading the team . He is the guy that's got the , the , the photogenic memory and blah , blah , blah . Like I Don't , I don't , I don't know the answer to this , because the fact there isn't anyone is Is concerning , but I also think that maybe coaching trees are a little bit overblown .

Speaker 1 58:00

Yeah , thanks for the perspective , Nick . A couple thoughts I have on this . The one thing I think is really interesting is if I was one of those brainiac Coordinators that knew all the X's and O's but had a hard time relating to players and being a players coach and doing these Like clarity of expectations and all the stuff that we've praised Mike for , I would think that going to work under Mike would be the best developmental opportunity . So a name I'll throw out we're talking about the Raiders before . Josh McDaniels had his stint in Denver , start out strong , then went back to the coordinator of New England and he is missing that element of the press conference and relating to players .

Speaker 1 58:45

I Wonder why Mike has never Attracted that up-and-coming , really smart , brainiac type of coordinator that needs rounded out in his people skills in an area that he could develop the most . And so that if I were to give Mike feedback , I would ask him to think really hard about that , think really hard about the way he Promotes coordinators . I think sometimes he is loyal to a fault where he wants to promote from within . He wants to give people a second and third chance , and I think that is Sometimes at the detriment of the collective , of the organization , his loyalty to individuals . So I do think there's something there .

Speaker 1 59:26

I think if you are in a leader of leader Situations , you got to think about the diversity of the team . You got to think about where your skill set might Complement and support the people that report to you and be really clear on what you're gonna be able to coach and develop them on , and they'd be really clear on the skills that they have that you don't have , that you are going to kind of bolster up and Nurture and allow to support the team . So there's there's a lot packed into that . I don't want to go too deep on this podcast , but leader of leaders is a key skill and I think there's some nuggets we can learn from how Mike has approached it . Nick , anything else to add there ?

Speaker 2 1:00:03

Not without getting too , you know , into it . But you know , you said Josh McDaniels and I would counter with like he's the guy in charge of an offense led by the greatest coach of all time in the greatest quarterback of our time . How hard could that be ? You know , no kidding , he's not good at a head coach . He's not had , he hasn't had to do anything . You know , tom Brady , you're gonna go to feel all right , go do whatever you do . Anyway , I'm I'm half kidding , but yeah . So I think I just think the idea , especially NFL Coordinators and head coaches . I mean , there's not that many of them . There's 32 head coaches in the world In the NFL , and half of them are constantly looking at their job opportunities because they're about to get fired . So I think , before we start saying who's a good coach and who's a bad coach , realize that there's not that many good coaches , just ever , at any given moment , at any time . So that's something to think about .

Speaker 1 1:01:01

All right , I'm gonna recap our six key lessons . Starts with expectations . Mike does an amazing job of being transparent about the expectations . He then the second thing we talked about was reinforcing that and accountability and Talk about when people are hitting it , when they're not rewarding and punishing in the right way . Talking about it . That's a super important thing .

Speaker 1 1:01:24

Part three was the excuses . We played the clip of we do not care , so killing off excuses immediately . When you do that as a leader , your team will follow suit . Part four was clarity of language . Right , so he talked about the division of labor with clay pole and how there's not a big enough booster with a blank check to Attract him to go to a college job and , lastly , are so . Fifth , we talked about motivation and what he did with Ryan Clark and how he treats people like people . And , lastly , we just wrapped up with some Leader of leader conversation . So hopefully you took a nugget from that . I now want to , nick , give you a chance before we get into some fun and talk stealers to throw out an episode challenge . So I always like to ask the listeners to do one thing before they listen to the next episode . So can , from what we talked about today , can you give one tangible challenge that everyone listening can try to do in the next couple weeks ?

Speaker 2 1:02:24

Yeah , I'll try to okay . So , whether you doesn't matter what your position is at work this week , go into the office or your job or wherever you work , and Try to make something Fun or a little bit more and energetic . Put a little bit of energy into something . And If you have to use a catchphrase Like don't blink , or if you have to just say something in a different way , even if it's the most mundane thing where you have to go and do this stupid thing , every Monday , blah , blah , blah , everyone does it and goes through the motion . Stop , I get everybody who's doing it . Put a little fun into it , jazz it up a little bit , give it some energy , just to kind of get the juices moving . And you know , if you gotta say data is dope , do it like . Get a little energy going amongst your coworkers or your team .

Speaker 2 1:03:27

It's not as hard as you think it is , but you know , put a little effort into it .

Speaker 1 1:03:32

I love it . Have more fun . I'll throw out an icebreaker that you can try . That might be kind of fun is to go around the room quickly to start a meeting . Right , meetings are boring . Ask people what is on the background of their phone , and people are gonna have pictures of their kids . They're gonna have pictures of nature . They're gonna have different stuff . You're gonna get to know them on a little bit of a deeper level and you can probe too , like oh , why do you have that ? Like what tell me about that ? Tell me about where that picture was . A good way to have a little fun , connect with people on a more personal level and tie in that number five that we talked about around motivation .

Speaker 2 1:04:09

And if you work with Zach Phillips , you can go into his office and get an espresso and try to ask him what's on his background of his phone and see if you can make that fun .

Speaker 1 1:04:22

I bet it will have something to do with Penn State we love you Zach . All right , let's have a little bit of fun . Speaking of fun , nick , let's have some here . I wanna hear your top five Steelers of all time . And this is your favorite right . This is , I'm not saying the five best , the five that . If you could watch them and bring them back onto the team or watch them forever . Who are the five Steelers that you enjoy the most ?

Speaker 2 1:04:53

So this is you and I have these conversations at least once a month , but there's so many different lists and criterias . On the negative side there's the Chad Scott list , but we know this is a positive energy episode , so we'll stay away from that .

Personal Favorites and All-Time Great Steelers

Speaker 2 1:05:09

My personal favorites and this is not like the greatest Steeler of all time is Joe Green . Okay , this is my Nick Angelo's personal favorites . And number one without a doubt is Greg Lloyd .

Speaker 2 1:05:22

I'm not a Steelers fan if it's not for 95 . The fact that he was , the fact that he wore a shirt that said they don't pay me for my disposition I mean , at the time I didn't even know what the word disposition meant . I had to get my dad to tell me what that meant . But Greg Lloyd , without a doubt number one Steeler of all time . He is the quintessential Pittsburgh linebacker . He was after Ham and Lambert , before Gilden and Porter , like Greg Lloyd , to me , is the all time Steeler . Then I'm gonna have to throw in Scott Paxson , because he is a personal friend of mine and that was super cool to have a buddy that was on the practice team and hang out with the Steelers .

Speaker 2 1:06:10

So I gotta give my boy , scott Paxson , a big love , big shout out . So , yeah , I'll throw him on the list . And then I think it is funny because I think Heinz Ward played himself into my heart because he just the way he played , they changed rules because of him . You know that's how good he was and he was just always smiling and , like I said , he made it fun and people hated him but respected him and to me that's what it's like to be a Steeler . And I'm keeping this list as guys I watch with my own two eyes . So , like you know , like Jack Lambert and Joe Green and stuff , that I loved watching those clips but I never saw them play live .

Speaker 2 1:06:56

I'm gonna say do you remember John Whitman ? I did not like this guy because he was a fullback and I was like this dude's slow , why is he on the field ? And he was like they were like hey , john , you're gonna get cut . And he said I'd rather retire than play for anyone else and I was like wait , this guy went to Penn State , then became a Steeler , trying as hard as he possibly could . And when they were like , hey , you can't play on this team , he's like I'd rather quit than play for anyone else . Like this guy is on my list of all-time favorite Steelers , so John Whitman is on that list . And then , geez number five . Do you remember how excited I was when we drafted Troy Edwards ? Oh man , that was a bust . I mean Alan .

Speaker 2 1:07:46

Fannica Casey Hampton . I got a lot of love for the big fellas up front . I don't know . Can I hold on a second ? I'm gonna hear your five and then you might jog my memory of who I could throw in there in number five .

Speaker 1 1:08:01

I wasn't as prepared for this question as I should have been , but my number one all-time is Troy Palamalu .

Speaker 2 1:08:06

Oh Christ what I assumed , that that was a given .

Speaker 1 1:08:12

Yeah , he transformed those awesome defenses in the late 2000s and I watch him like I kind of watch my kids play sports where I'm just like don't get hurt , don't get hurt , don't get hurt , because he would battle injuries throughout his career and anytime he was down the defense was just not the same . So he's my all-time .

Speaker 2 1:08:33

Greater safety of all-time and I will start fighting . I'm getting tired of doing the well , he was one and Ed Reid was one A , and it's like the Beatles and the Rulings . No , troy Palamalu is the greatest safety of all time and I will fight you if you wanna say Ed Reid , because it's not even close . It's actually not even close and that's for another topic in a debate . But I'm sorry , go ahead .

Speaker 1 1:08:56

All right , I love it . My number two is gonna be obscure . So when we were growing up in the down era of the Steelers with Bobby Brister in the 80s and kind of moving into the early 90s , and even when they had Cordell Stewart and Neil Donnell and they made a little bit of a run there , they never really had big-time receivers . So the first receiver that I remember just being in on was Plexico Burris . So I'm a forever Plexico Burris Apologist . He's number two on my list . I will hear no slander . I know he shot himself in a club and went to jail , but I will hear no slander on this podcast of Plexico Burris , just hear you say that my arm gets sore .

Speaker 2 1:09:42

for those who don't know , when Nate and I would watch games in our younger days and Plex would make a big play , nate would go nuts and I usually was on the receiving end of a punch or having to catch him as he jumped to the ceiling . But yeah , so I'm well aware of your Plex love .

Speaker 1 1:09:59

Yeah , number three in that same vein is Santonio Holmes . This my Penn State love at the time wasn't as big , so him coming from Ohio State didn't bother me at all . I think I would smack you in the head when he'd score a touchdown . Scream Buckeye , because of the Buckeye stickers that would come on . He famously caught the game-winning touchdown in Super Bowl 43 , the last Super Bowl that the Steelers won , and he was just a dynamic playmaker . He returned a punt in that playoffs against the Chargers . So he has a special place for me for sure . And then I don't know . Those three are at the top , so I'll throw it back to you if you have your fifth around me out .

Speaker 2 1:10:50

I mean I gotta say Troy , but for the sake of entertainment . I mean Jerome Bettis was kind of like the quintessential stealer for a long time of my life , but I don't know , I feel like that's like a like I'm the type of guy who likes obscurity , like I'll say Dermati Dawson Center , for in those early 90s years Hall of Fame Center that came out of Kentucky . Dirt Dawson , I mean he was the reason why I knew who offense a lineman were . Like you never heard of an offense a lineman because like that the old saying goes is like if they're doing their job their name doesn't get called . But in Pittsburgh it was like ah , dirt Dawson . I can hear Myron Cope talk about Dirt Dawson and just like the tough nature that he was and like that's another position on that Steelers team in the franchise is center . You know a long , long list history of very talented centers , so Dermati Dawson might be on my list there .

Speaker 1 1:11:55

That's a great choice . Current Steelers I love the defense , so Minka and TJ Water Harden not the like , so they're probably on some lists somewhere . James Farrier was a great guy at a root , for I never quite all the way was in , but he was . We haven't really had a middle linebacker like that other than the years that Shazier was around . That's probably the big what if ? Of the Steelers defense , if they had Minka , Shazier and Watt as kind of the three levels . But I think that's it for me . Anything else to add player wise Nick , Because I do want to ask you if you have a favorite Steeler game of all time . Well , I'll say this .

Speaker 2 1:12:36

And if you you know you can hear more about this on my podcast , that football show that comes out every Thursday . But TJ Watt is the best defensive player in the league and that's not even up for debate . Do you know how hard it is as a defensive player there's 11 guys on the team on the field at once For the defense to be an individual who can single handedly change the outcome of a game . Do you know how hard that is ? It is damn near impossible . I'm talking like Michael Jordan , lebron James level of single handedly taking over a game . You add that to football . It's hard to do anyway , but then like , oh you know , tom Brady did it , john Elway did it .

Speaker 2 1:13:23

I'm talking about an outside linebacker Single handedly winning ball games , that is . I need people to understand that a little bit more . Tj Watt is a special , special player and he's like the new team . He's a special player and he's like the new Troy Palomalu . Every play . I'm like please don't get hurt , because I've seen what it's like when he's been out , so just wanted to put that out there .

Speaker 1 1:13:52

Good close for us , nick .

Conversation About Podcast and Appreciation

Speaker 1 1:13:54

Thank you so much for coming on . For those that want to hear more of Nick , we'll link that football show in the show notes . Definitely check it out . Get a lot of good football insight . Nick Davilsen comedy as well . You probably hear more of that , so he's a great guy to listen to . He's good enough for what you did to help me kick off this podcast , nick , and for coming on today to talk Steelers and Mike Tomlin .

Speaker 2 1:14:17

Thanks for having me , nate , and the podcast is great . Man , you're doing a fantastic job . I'm really happy to be a part of it . I hope you get it off the ground and I knew that you would take it to the next level , because you , my friend , have a lot of skills and talents and I'm glad you're sharing them with the world . So looking forward to coming on for another episode For all you pro wrestling fans out there . I've been trying to talk Nate into having a pro wrestling episode , but we'll gauge the interest off after this one .

Speaker 1 1:14:47

Sounds good . As I always say , the world needs more leaders . Do your part to gain leadership skills , one thing at a time . Thanks everyone .